Curse

glasszon · Jun 13, 2005, 03:46 AM // 03:46

I think you guys looked at the secondary changing quest the wrong way. Have you actually read the red letters when you choose a secondary? It said clearly there is no turning back once you made the decision, so ArenaNet is already generous in that regard. Secondary changing quest are there to allow you to test some combos you might liked for your next character, but it is not there so you can change into any secondary at no cost. I think the way skill points system and broken secondary quest after you change secondary is just fine. It allows people to experiment with new ideas without starting a character. (Eg. My air E/Me have all the skills unlocked for E and Me, but I never used any other mesmer skills except Energy Drain and Power Drain for energy management) The current "penalty" for unlocking another set of skills for a second secondary is quite large and would stop all the people who want to attempt it except the people who just love this game and play 24/7. If you guys complain about this and say it is not how the game should be played, you might as well go and argue why they didn't remove Lornar's Pass from the game because it allows you to bypass so many missions and get ascension armor way before you should and obviously the mission back in northern shiverpeaks aren't intended for you to do with that kind of armor.

Silmor · Jun 13, 2005, 10:33 AM // 10:33

glasszon, many people use their secondary profession quite intensely, and I don't believe ArenaNet intends to restrict your creativity involving your secondary profession in any way. I wouldn't call the current implementation of switching secondary class 'generous' because it currently effectively gimps your character - you lose access to all the secondary skills you had previously, but due to the skill point system and broken quests you don't get a decent chance to get back up to strength.

Your argumentation of 'I don't use that many skills from my secondary profession anyway' just doesn't float for a lot of builds (a healing type E/Mo for instance who uses energy storage for a large tank of healing energy could easily want eight monk skills on her bar) and basically seems to excuse a flawed system because it happens to interfere less with your playing style exclusively.

Quote:

...and would stop all the people who want to attempt it except the people who just love this game and play 24/7

With ArenaNet's stated dislike for introducing grind (see the latest Game Updates snippet about the planned update for Wednesday), do you really think this is what they intended?

Vangor · Jun 13, 2005, 11:19 AM // 11:19

I have to agree that I believe the current system is unintentional and certainly a bit restrictive. I do not want to play through three more characters in order to unlock all skills properly for every class, the problem is, I cannot spend hours upon hours a day to get another skill point, or even earn the massive gold costs to unlock enough skills for choice and feasability in a class. Unfortunately, I think ArenaNet kind of screwed itself in two positions, first, the unlock all skills ability in BWE, and the old games where you began at 15. Missions were originally balanced, and somewhat more difficult I might add, even Post Searing Ascalon, for these level 15-20's, and there is more to be learned in failure of possessing all things and experimentation, than through a tutorial. Then, they gave us the unlock command, but didn't unlock upgrades, sure it means drops become useless, but really, when did you need them now? I need them to get my 15k armor to look different, why not force people to simply obtain fame and ranks to look different and mightier, without actually getting an increase, or complete missions to more directly unlock these aesthetic changes, that is what it comes down to after Droknar's Forge. But, I would've spent a great deal of time experimenting with ever class as primary and secondary, various attributes for each, a bevy of skills and upgrades to do, different armors, however, that would now require me to grind the entire thing out, which I don't want to.

Granted, they won't really allow us to do this now, that would be a drastic change, however, I say giving us repeatable quests for skill gain is not the worst idea, I've downed thousands into the current systems in order to make any secondary I choose at least somewhat viable for my style of play, especially as a Warrior, I can only think of the more shifting styles for other classes, since all we do is rush in and hit things.

Cymmina · Jun 13, 2005, 11:27 AM // 11:27

From a RP perspective, reopening all of those quests you've already done doesn't make much sense, does it?

I know it isn't the answer you'd like to hear, but you could just save up all of those quests that give skills for both primary and secondary professions until after you've unlocked additional secondaries. That's what I did for my ranger. Now, I'm going back and completing the quests with the secondary I want the skill for (after I made a complete list of which quest gives which skill). Sure, it was a pain, but I got plenty of skill points left over to buy non-questable skills.

I agree that leveling for skill points needs to be removed. It's bad enough that for some of us, our next skill purchase will be 500+ for a single skill. But to get all of that exp for a single skill point? Not cool.

glasszon · Jun 13, 2005, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

glasszon, many people use their secondary profession quite intensely, and I don't believe ArenaNet intends to restrict your creativity involving your secondary profession in any way. I wouldn't call the current implementation of switching secondary class 'generous' because it currently effectively gimps your character - you lose access to all the secondary skills you had previously, but due to the skill point system and broken quests you don't get a decent chance to get back up to strength.

Your argumentation of 'I don't use that many skills from my secondary profession anyway' just doesn't float for a lot of builds (a healing type E/Mo for instance who uses energy storage for a large tank of healing energy could easily want eight monk skills on her bar) and basically seems to excuse a flawed system because it happens to interfere less with your playing style exclusively.

With ArenaNet's stated dislike for introducing grind (see the latest Game Updates snippet about the planned update for Wednesday), do you really think this is what they intended?

I think you don't quite understand what I try to say, all I said is, to test a new build or combo involving another secondary does not require many skills at all, all you need is a maximum of 8 (you can't have more than that on the skill bar at the same time). It is not difficult at all to get 8 skill points past level 20, just go to do all those underworld or fissure quest and you will get your experience in no time, you can always repeat them as many times as you wanted. (Which shouldn't be necessary if all you test is 1 new combo, there is tons of exp to be had with those missions, up to 10k per mission if you manage to complete them)

Also, please correct me if I am wrong, I know a friend who loves to change secondary, and he told me that if you have that skill prior to the change, you will get them back once you change back to that profession. (Let me put it in context incase I didn't explain it clear enough, I mean for example if I had Chain Lightning and Lightning Strike already available for a Mo/E, even though you "lost" it when you change to Mo/Me for example, but you will get the skill back immediately once you change back to Mo/E, so you can use Chain Lightning and Lightning Strike without having to purchase them again from a NPC) So obviously if you remove the skill system, it basicly make the choice for secondary totally pointless, it is also pointless for you to do all those side missions except for fun. Why would I spend 1-2 hours doing a mission for a reward that I could get in 15 minutes by some trading for profit and use those profit to purchase those skill from an NPC instead? There is simply no reward for doing those missions at all, because exp beyond level 20 do no good except gives you skill points and reward that gives free skills also basicly gives you free gold + free skill point as you don't have to purchase them via the NPC. If you remove skill points system, you will get a lot of people who will simply get rushed to Ascension as quick as possible in order to reach level 20, and just forget about doing any mission after that and focus on trading for gold in order to obtain all skills in 1 day. Is that what ArenaNet wants?

Vangor: How long do you take to plan each character? I usually spend 10-20 hours planning a new character by using character builders, asking friends in game and finally, I will do some testing in game once I am sure it will work by doing those secondary changing quest. I have yet to mess up a character using this method and I believe this is what skill point based system is designed for. If imagine you are playing Strategic games like Starcraft, you will always think about your starting moves before you even started the match by assessing how well your opponents were, what race they are using and possible techniques they might use. It is exactly the same thing that you should do in Guild Wars, plan your character carefully before you started it, not after. I think skill points system are there to force people to think more about what they are doing. Which I believe is exactly what ArenaNet wants.

What you guys are suggesting about the removal of skill points system is to simply make Guild War into a RPG version of Counter-Strike, where everyone will be exactly equal and the team with the best teamwork and actions per minute (how many things you do in 1 minute) would win the round. What Strategy it involves in remembering all your hotkeys and know to use it as fast as possible?

RTSFirebat · Jun 13, 2005, 12:02 PM // 12:02

If anything I wish it was easier to gain more skill points... since gaining even a single one is annoying...

glasszon · Jun 13, 2005, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymmina

From a RP perspective, reopening all of those quests you've already done doesn't make much sense, does it?

I know it isn't the answer you'd like to hear, but you could just save up all of those quests that give skills for both primary and secondary professions until after you've unlocked additional secondaries. That's what I did for my ranger. Now, I'm going back and completing the quests with the secondary I want the skill for (after I made a complete list of which quest gives which skill). Sure, it was a pain, but I got plenty of skill points left over to buy non-questable skills.

I agree that leveling for skill points needs to be removed. It's bad enough that for some of us, our next skill purchase will be 500+ for a single skill. But to get all of that exp for a single skill point? Not cool.

It is not difficult to get 500 gold at all, if you have about 10k gold, you can double this in 30 minutes of playing time by buying stuff low and sell them when the price is high, remember the economy in Guild Wars is quite different from real world, the price variation for items could vary significantly over a period of a few days.

Vangor · Jun 13, 2005, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Glass, most of the time testing a "build" requires gaining elite skills of that build, spending a long time unlocking other non-elites which cannot be purchased and are not from the few starting quests you can have, as well as changing it a few times, keeping what works, and does not.

As well Cymmina, this seems pointless, as I did not even know I could switch secondary classes when the game was originally released, and thought I had known what I wanted, instead, chose to be a War/E, luckily, I can do what I want right now, however, I cannot seem to find most skills if I wanted to be an Elementalist.

And glass, with all games you could potentially just grind out to get everything, that is not what Guild Wars is about however. In WoW, I could spend two weeks and level any character, I could have each class on hand, and then begin to gear them out with a few more weeks of raiding, so essentially, no one is restricted, but this is not realistic.

Me, I don't want to go out to strictly purchase all of my skills, especially not sitting in the midst of town to strictly buy and sell if I can even actually make money at it, since prices could very well drop all the same or demand simply moves off, nor do I want to fight constantly in order to earn gold and experience in order to actually purchase my skills, especially not both.

That is the problem is that it feels so pointless to do so, restarting a character has never been fun for me, I choose what I want because I tend to know what I want, however, here is a game which it is rather viable to "start over", creating a PvP character, but the mechanic to do it requires quite a bit of time because of the current set up. Since we cannot use more than eight skills, there won't be an abuse of gaining these, and it is strictly our misfortune to have gotten to this point, wish to try other things, and be rather unable to unless we are to completely reroll, which I think is boring, or grind endlessly for a game which says you won't have to grind.

Silmor · Jun 13, 2005, 12:32 PM // 12:32

What I'm talking about is people who first start Guild Wars with their favourite profession, get told they need a secondary profession and basically pick one without much thought, then play through the entire game. Gradually they begin to understand what the other classes are about, and begin to regret their choice of secondary profession, but can't be bothered to start their entire character over. Cue secondary change quests. I'm not buying the "they're there just so you can experiment a little before changing back to your original secondary" proposition, but the last word on that lies with ArenaNet.

The skill quests typically offer skills before they become available from a skill trader (e.g. Balthazar's Spirit can be earned in Beacon's Perch, or bought lateron in Lion's Arch). Skill points don't influence the natural skill procurement until the late game, when you've already finished all the quests and are working to collect the last skills for your class.

GW will never fully be Counter-Strike. Out of approximately 150 skills each player can take along only 8 skills, and has to choose to distribute his attribute points as she sees fit. Many skills need careful timing to work properly, or are heavily situational (pretty much the entire Mesmer class works like this), so it's so much more than using all your hotkeys as fast as possible.

You're entirely right about the planning - I spend a lot more time plotting builds than actually playing GW (enjoying both equally). But that's only possible when the moment I step into GW I have the skills I intend to use at my disposal, and don't need to grind three or four levels before I can buy them. Your suggestion of planning an entire character is way too rigid for my taste: different PvE maps require different builds to function properly, and I like experimenting with new builds a lot, and that requires versatility in skills to work. If ArenaNet intended people to stick with one build they designed before starting, there wouldn't be attribute refunds, there wouldn't be secondary change quests. And all this is just concerning PvE, in PvP being able to change your character around at the drop of a hat is critical. Premades exist for that, but premades still need to get their skills unlocked.

I think a large portion of the replayability of Guild Wars lies in having a 'finished' character that you can flexibly change around a lot to play various roles in groups. The replayability isn't in doing the same thing over and over again before you can have fun with experimenting.

Rieselle · Jun 13, 2005, 01:58 PM // 13:58

First of all I'd like to see levels after 20 be fixed in XP cost... (rather than increasing, which is the current situation afaik?)

I'd also like to see big xp rewards in "proper" pvp, say GvG or holding the HoH. Say, for example, most people can get a skill point just from winning a ranked match or holding the HoH for a round.

This means there's a significant incentive for PvE characters to play PvP once they are finished with the storyline. And a significant incentive for pvp players to pay more attention to their pve character.

Incidentally - if you want to unlock a lot of skills fast, why not make a 2nd character identical to the 1st, get the exact 8 skills for your favorite pve build asap, and save up all the rest of your quests and skill points, and then swap secondaries around after ascension and quickly get the skills you want? You can unlock your preferred skills across most of the classes without needing to finish the game with 3 characters. You can also twink the new character with goodies from the 1st to make things a little easier. Even better if you have friends to run you to ascension or Drognak's Forge.

It's not going to get you "all the skills" any quicker, but it will get you the main ones across all classes with just 2 chars.

Aug · Jun 13, 2005, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

What you guys are suggesting about the removal of skill points system is to simply make Guild War into a RPG version of Counter-Strike, where everyone will be exactly equal and the team with the best teamwork and actions per minute (how many things you do in 1 minute) would win the round. What Strategy it involves in remembering all your hotkeys and know to use it as fast as possible?

That is exactly what we want, to an extent. The strategy involved is selecting a set of skills across 8 people that work well together, and coordinating those players to use them at the appopriate times on the most optimal targets.

I currently have a Mo/E with nearly 700,000 experience. I have 28 of 30 elites between the professions, all of the Elementalist skills, and I'm missing about 10 Monk skills. I have 1 capture signet left. 0 skill points. 70 platinum and rising. 275 hours of gameplay. And each skill point is increasingly more difficult to get (need more XP for the 'level up').

The "grind for skill points" system is stupid. It definitely needs to be addressed in some way.

Silmor · Jun 13, 2005, 02:27 PM // 14:27

You get skill points from PvP'ing (whenever your fame rank rises, as detailed here ), so that form of reward is in.

Unlocking skills fast with a second character isn't exactly a practical thing. That character will start in pre-searing Ascalon, so unless you happen to be after the starting skills, there's nothing fast about it - you're basically replaying the PvE portion all over before you reach the point where you can get the skills you want, so it's not exactly a quick fix. Being run to Droknar's Forge by someone is one way of speeding this process up, but it's a rather crooked method, and still doesn't solve anything for the secondary switching quests.

Getting all the main skills usually isn't the issue, it's basically wanting just that one skill when facing defeat somewhere, the skill you never thought you'd need but right now badly need to counter what killed you moments earlier, i.e. being able to optimally adapt to circumstances.

Aug · Jun 13, 2005, 05:01 PM // 17:01

According to Ensign, you no longer gain Skill Points from Fame. And it makes sense, considering your fame is account-wide. Not to mention that the system that did exist was incredibly slow. The highest ranked players are only around 8-10... even 10 more skill points isn't much. You can probably gain 10 skill points by grinding PvE faster than climbing up the Fame ladder.

Mayar third Keeper · Jun 13, 2005, 11:08 PM // 23:08

I changed my sec profession and its realy hard to get the imaginary lvl ups for all the skills

.

But i dont want to buy them! because the 24/ players have all the money to buy them in seconds but the casual player doesnt. Form my point of view the best option is to add more quests. Quest wich u can do after changing ur sec professsion to earn skills from that profession. this would also add some "after lvl20" content, too!

Eclair · Jun 14, 2005, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Perhaps tack on skill points to all the post ascension quests and adding more quests would alleviate this problem?

Mayar third Keeper · Jun 17, 2005, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Ok they changed the exp system. Great

Now we need more quests *g*